Federal funding of ACORN is not just a Democratic Party or Obama Administration problem. As a chart (PDF) produced by House Republican Leader John Boehner shows, most of the federal money going to the organization was provided under President George W. Bush. This is not something that most Republicans want to talk about, especially now that they can use ACORN funding as a weapon against Obama and the Democrats.
The U.S. Catholic Church, which has also funded ACORN and similar organizations to the tune of millions of dollars. This is another taboo topic for most of the media. Even conservative news organizations are afraid of raising the issue, apparently fearing being tagged with the "anti-Catholic" label.
http://gopleader.gov/UploadedFiles/ACORN_chart.pdf
http://www.rightsidenews.com/politics-and-economics/the-bigger-scandal-catholic-church-funding-of-acorn.html#
I'd like to know if the US Catholic Church will continue to fund ACORN in light of recent revelations about ACORN.
I am disappointed to know the Catholic Church supports this organization.
I am disappointed to know the Catholic Church supports this organization.
QUOTE (Kate @ Sep 23 2009, 02:20 PM) 
I'd like to know if the US Catholic Church will continue to fund ACORN in light of recent revelations about ACORN.
I am disappointed to know the Catholic Church supports this organization.
I am disappointed to know the Catholic Church supports this organization.
Keep in mind, that ACORN actually did a lot of good for a lot of communities, on the whole. Unless the Catholic church encouraged the actions of the bad-apple ACORNs, or tried to cover up these actions, I'm not sure why you would be so disappointed? The church was supporting an organization that it thought (and in most cases was) doing good things. Now that the cat is out of the bag, so to speak, it will be interesting to see how the church reacts. My guess is they will distance themselves from the organization.
Later...Shawn
QUOTE (Shawn @ Sep 23 2009, 02:25 PM)
Keep in mind, that ACORN actually did a lot of good for a lot of communities, on the whole. Unless the Catholic church encouraged the actions of the bad-apple ACORNs, or tried to cover up these actions, I'm not sure why you would be so disappointed? The church was supporting an organization that it thought (and in most cases was) doing good things. Now that the cat is out of the bag, so to speak, it will be interesting to see how the church reacts. My guess is they will distance themselves from the organization.
Later...Shawn
Later...Shawn
I concur.
QUOTE (Kate @ Sep 23 2009, 03:20 PM)
I'd like to know if the US Catholic Church will continue to fund ACORN in light of recent revelations about ACORN.
I am disappointed to know the Catholic Church supports this organization.
I am disappointed to know the Catholic Church supports this organization.
Come on kate they hid Nazi's and pedophiles .
Them giving ACORN money to help the poor was a good thing in comparison .
The Catholic Church is filled with corruption. No surprise here that they would support a corrupt organization like ACORN.
More on this later, but here's a snippet from a blog post I made earlier tonight elsewhere on the ACORN subject. Enjoy.
Chew on that for a while, as you busily demonize eevul demokratz and ignore the underlying realities that make all this happen.
QUOTE
See, these ACORN people in the impoverished communities are not just there working with the communities, they are by and large also representative of them, and their ways.
Some of you who haven't yet caught onto the fast-growing cultural disconnect between the haves and have-nots in America may have trouble getting this, but the have-nots are using a different moral compass than you are. They see the world in a different way than you do. Vastly different. And millions of them have been in a trans-generational "survival mode" for decades. Decades, or generations, gives you the time you need to decide that the best way to do things might not be the way "your betters" tell you to.
To many of America's "forgotten" (read: ignored) masses, it IS ok to be a prostitute, it IS ok to lie to the government to avoid taxes and get a pound of flesh back from Uncle Sam, it IS ok to pad voter rolls among the disenfranchised, it IS just fine to smuggle illegals into the country. That's all just fine, because nobody else is looking out for your butt in this society anyway.
Uncomfortable with this yet? Hang on, we're going deeper.
And the ACORN people are, again, largely members of these impoverished, uneducated, disenfranchised communities themselves. It really doesn't matter what the people up the ladder believe or dictate, the people at the bottom, working at street level, are going to play by the rules of the society they belong to. And that isn't necessarily the society you think you belong to.
This is where the disconnect comes into play. See, their culture + your culture doesn't = our culture. Just two different cultures occupying the same land mass, with nothing much to say to one another.
And this is the broad side of the barn that neither side of the political spectrum really wants out in the light to shoot at. Our society is socio-economically fractured. BADLY. And those on the hurting-end of the fracture live in an anything-to-get-by mindset that pays little attention to our moral, ethical or legal sensibilities.
Some of you who haven't yet caught onto the fast-growing cultural disconnect between the haves and have-nots in America may have trouble getting this, but the have-nots are using a different moral compass than you are. They see the world in a different way than you do. Vastly different. And millions of them have been in a trans-generational "survival mode" for decades. Decades, or generations, gives you the time you need to decide that the best way to do things might not be the way "your betters" tell you to.
To many of America's "forgotten" (read: ignored) masses, it IS ok to be a prostitute, it IS ok to lie to the government to avoid taxes and get a pound of flesh back from Uncle Sam, it IS ok to pad voter rolls among the disenfranchised, it IS just fine to smuggle illegals into the country. That's all just fine, because nobody else is looking out for your butt in this society anyway.
Uncomfortable with this yet? Hang on, we're going deeper.
And the ACORN people are, again, largely members of these impoverished, uneducated, disenfranchised communities themselves. It really doesn't matter what the people up the ladder believe or dictate, the people at the bottom, working at street level, are going to play by the rules of the society they belong to. And that isn't necessarily the society you think you belong to.
This is where the disconnect comes into play. See, their culture + your culture doesn't = our culture. Just two different cultures occupying the same land mass, with nothing much to say to one another.
And this is the broad side of the barn that neither side of the political spectrum really wants out in the light to shoot at. Our society is socio-economically fractured. BADLY. And those on the hurting-end of the fracture live in an anything-to-get-by mindset that pays little attention to our moral, ethical or legal sensibilities.
Chew on that for a while, as you busily demonize eevul demokratz and ignore the underlying realities that make all this happen.
QUOTE
QUOTE
See, these ACORN people in the impoverished communities are not just there working with the communities, they are by and large also representative of them, and their ways.
Some of you who haven't yet caught onto the fast-growing cultural disconnect between the haves and have-nots in America may have trouble getting this, but the have-nots are using a different moral compass than you are. They see the world in a different way than you do. Vastly different. And millions of them have been in a trans-generational "survival mode" for decades. Decades, or generations, gives you the time you need to decide that the best way to do things might not be the way "your betters" tell you to.
To many of America's "forgotten" (read: ignored) masses, it IS ok to be a prostitute, it IS ok to lie to the government to avoid taxes and get a pound of flesh back from Uncle Sam, it IS ok to pad voter rolls among the disenfranchised, it IS just fine to smuggle illegals into the country. That's all just fine, because nobody else is looking out for your butt in this society anyway.
Uncomfortable with this yet? Hang on, we're going deeper.
And the ACORN people are, again, largely members of these impoverished, uneducated, disenfranchised communities themselves. It really doesn't matter what the people up the ladder believe or dictate, the people at the bottom, working at street level, are going to play by the rules of the society they belong to. And that isn't necessarily the society you think you belong to.
This is where the disconnect comes into play. See, their culture + your culture doesn't = our culture. Just two different cultures occupying the same land mass, with nothing much to say to one another.
And this is the broad side of the barn that neither side of the political spectrum really wants out in the light to shoot at. Our society is socio-economically fractured. BADLY. And those on the hurting-end of the fracture live in an anything-to-get-by mindset that pays little attention to our moral, ethical or legal sensibilities.
See, these ACORN people in the impoverished communities are not just there working with the communities, they are by and large also representative of them, and their ways.
Some of you who haven't yet caught onto the fast-growing cultural disconnect between the haves and have-nots in America may have trouble getting this, but the have-nots are using a different moral compass than you are. They see the world in a different way than you do. Vastly different. And millions of them have been in a trans-generational "survival mode" for decades. Decades, or generations, gives you the time you need to decide that the best way to do things might not be the way "your betters" tell you to.
To many of America's "forgotten" (read: ignored) masses, it IS ok to be a prostitute, it IS ok to lie to the government to avoid taxes and get a pound of flesh back from Uncle Sam, it IS ok to pad voter rolls among the disenfranchised, it IS just fine to smuggle illegals into the country. That's all just fine, because nobody else is looking out for your butt in this society anyway.
Uncomfortable with this yet? Hang on, we're going deeper.
And the ACORN people are, again, largely members of these impoverished, uneducated, disenfranchised communities themselves. It really doesn't matter what the people up the ladder believe or dictate, the people at the bottom, working at street level, are going to play by the rules of the society they belong to. And that isn't necessarily the society you think you belong to.
This is where the disconnect comes into play. See, their culture + your culture doesn't = our culture. Just two different cultures occupying the same land mass, with nothing much to say to one another.
And this is the broad side of the barn that neither side of the political spectrum really wants out in the light to shoot at. Our society is socio-economically fractured. BADLY. And those on the hurting-end of the fracture live in an anything-to-get-by mindset that pays little attention to our moral, ethical or legal sensibilities.
Very interesting perspective.
QUOTE (citydweller @ Sep 24 2009, 02:22 AM)
More on this later, but here's a snippet from a blog post I made earlier tonight elsewhere on the ACORN subject. Enjoy.
Chew on that for a while, as you busily demonize eevul demokratz and ignore the underlying realities that make all this happen.
Chew on that for a while, as you busily demonize eevul demokratz and ignore the underlying realities that make all this happen.
Very well written. Good find. It seems to me then, that the goal should be to find a way to lift them up and incorporate them into our culture, to make them one with the whole.
QUOTE (citydweller @ Sep 24 2009, 02:22 AM)
More on this later, but here's a snippet from a blog post I made earlier tonight elsewhere on the ACORN subject. Enjoy.
Chew on that for a while, as you busily demonize eevul demokratz and ignore the underlying realities that make all this happen.
Chew on that for a while, as you busily demonize eevul demokratz and ignore the underlying realities that make all this happen.
Your well-written piece ignores the fact that at the core of much ongoing poverty is drugs. Most prostitutes are drug-addicted, and turning tricks is the way to get their daily quota either on the streets or from the pimp who is also their supplier.
It also ignores generational poverty fed by poor example and lousy life choices. And the answer isn't to keep pouring money into the bottomless bucket or to politically elect those who will keep the money flowing. All that has done for decades is keep the poor enslaved and beholden to the government for their subsistence.
The only ticket out of poverty is education, and intervention by role models to keep children in school. But when the drug culture uses 11 year old kids as "runners" and pays them in $50s to deliver, and when selling drugs nets you thousands when flipping burgers nets you minimum wage, the lure is too strong.
http://www.childrenofthenight.org
http://www.popcenter.org/problems/street_prostitution
http://www.ontheissues.org/Al_Gore_Welfare_&_Poverty.htm
QUOTE (ceejay @ Sep 24 2009, 10:12 AM)
Your well-written piece ignores the fact that at the core of much ongoing poverty is drugs. Most prostitutes are drug-addicted, and turning tricks is the way to get their daily quota either on the streets or from the pimp who is also their supplier.
It also ignores generational poverty fed by poor example and lousy life choices. And the answer isn't to keep pouring money into the bottomless bucket or to politically elect those who will keep the money flowing.
It also ignores generational poverty fed by poor example and lousy life choices. And the answer isn't to keep pouring money into the bottomless bucket or to politically elect those who will keep the money flowing.
You're right on each point, but off-base on the whole overall. Everything you list, and much more, is an aspect of life on the other side of the cultural divide, true. But no one of them, or even group of them lumped together, accurately portray the totality of "otherness" that is the culture of this other world.
We persist in talking about symptoms, when in truth we need to look at the disease as a whole and give it a name before we can productively talk about a cure.
See, it's not just about choices or opportunities, it's about the perspective, the world view from which you see and measure them. And those on the "other side" don't share your views, your perspectives, your moral compass, your culture. This is where I stopped using the term "class divide" some time back, because it's not about "an impoverished and disenfranchised class within our culture", really. It's a separate culture altogether, occupying the American landscape alongside us, but ultimately doing so divided from us by wholly differing perspectives about the basic realities of life.
So, essentially when our people try to address their people and explain why they should stop using drugs, joining gangs, being prostitutes, dropping out of school, having fatherless children etc, it nominally has all the effect of telling Eskimos the benefits of a 401(k).
I realize that much of this is terribly un-PC, but think on the last few times members of the "other culture" came on TalkBack in some numbers. Not only did we find ourselves speaking to each other in two completely different languages, but also from perspectives that neither side seemed able to wrap their minds around. And, in one instance, we were labeled as culturally insensitive.
Think about that.
As much as I wanted to believe, at the time, that the charge was a catch-phrase picked up in church or from some ACORN-type, I find that I'm more inclined to think the writer really meant it. "You don't get us".
And if the plain truth is to be spoken, the vast majority of "us" don't get "them". And "they" don't get "us".
One nation, two distinct cultures. Divided along socio-economic lines to a large degree to be sure, but equally divided by nearly all aspects of "perceiving the world around us" as well.
And in my mind, at least, this is the honest place from which any conversation about change must begin. Acknowledge the disease, openly, then start looking for a cure. If there is one.
QUOTE (citydweller @ Sep 24 2009, 01:19 PM)
You're right on each point, but off-base on the whole overall. Everything you list, and much more, is an aspect of life on the other side of the cultural divide, true. But no one of them, or even group of them lumped together, accurately portray the totality of "otherness" that is the culture of this other world.
We persist in talking about symptoms, when in truth we need to look at the disease as a whole and give it a name before we can productively talk about a cure.
See, it's not just about choices or opportunities, it's about the perspective, the world view from which you see and measure them. And those on the "other side" don't share your views, your perspectives, your moral compass, your culture. This is where I stopped using the term "class divide" some time back, because it's not about "an impoverished and disenfranchised class within our culture", really. It's a separate culture altogether, occupying the American landscape alongside us, but ultimately doing so divided from us by wholly differing perspectives about the basic realities of life.
So, essentially when our people try to address their people and explain why they should stop using drugs, joining gangs, being prostitutes, dropping out of school, having fatherless children etc, it nominally has all the effect of telling Eskimos the benefits of a 401(k).
I realize that much of this is terribly un-PC, but think on the last few times members of the "other culture" came on TalkBack in some numbers. Not only did we find ourselves speaking to each other in two completely different languages, but also from perspectives that neither side seemed able to wrap their minds around. And, in one instance, we were labeled as culturally insensitive.
Think about that.
As much as I wanted to believe, at the time, that the charge was a catch-phrase picked up in church or from some ACORN-type, I find that I'm more inclined to think the writer really meant it. "You don't get us".
And if the plain truth is to be spoken, the vast majority of "us" don't get "them". And "they" don't get "us".
One nation, two distinct cultures. Divided along socio-economic lines to a large degree to be sure, but equally divided by nearly all aspects of "perceiving the world around us" as well.
And in my mind, at least, this is the honest place from which any conversation about change must begin. Acknowledge the disease, openly, then start looking for a cure. If there is one.
We persist in talking about symptoms, when in truth we need to look at the disease as a whole and give it a name before we can productively talk about a cure.
See, it's not just about choices or opportunities, it's about the perspective, the world view from which you see and measure them. And those on the "other side" don't share your views, your perspectives, your moral compass, your culture. This is where I stopped using the term "class divide" some time back, because it's not about "an impoverished and disenfranchised class within our culture", really. It's a separate culture altogether, occupying the American landscape alongside us, but ultimately doing so divided from us by wholly differing perspectives about the basic realities of life.
So, essentially when our people try to address their people and explain why they should stop using drugs, joining gangs, being prostitutes, dropping out of school, having fatherless children etc, it nominally has all the effect of telling Eskimos the benefits of a 401(k).
I realize that much of this is terribly un-PC, but think on the last few times members of the "other culture" came on TalkBack in some numbers. Not only did we find ourselves speaking to each other in two completely different languages, but also from perspectives that neither side seemed able to wrap their minds around. And, in one instance, we were labeled as culturally insensitive.
Think about that.
As much as I wanted to believe, at the time, that the charge was a catch-phrase picked up in church or from some ACORN-type, I find that I'm more inclined to think the writer really meant it. "You don't get us".
And if the plain truth is to be spoken, the vast majority of "us" don't get "them". And "they" don't get "us".
One nation, two distinct cultures. Divided along socio-economic lines to a large degree to be sure, but equally divided by nearly all aspects of "perceiving the world around us" as well.
And in my mind, at least, this is the honest place from which any conversation about change must begin. Acknowledge the disease, openly, then start looking for a cure. If there is one.
Excellent response!
moral relativism
QUOTE (citydweller @ Sep 24 2009, 01:19 PM)
You're right on each point, but off-base on the whole overall. Everything you list, and much more, is an aspect of life on the other side of the cultural divide, true. But no one of them, or even group of them lumped together, accurately portray the totality of "otherness" that is the culture of this other world.
We persist in talking about symptoms, when in truth we need to look at the disease as a whole and give it a name before we can productively talk about a cure.
See, it's not just about choices or opportunities, it's about the perspective, the world view from which you see and measure them. And those on the "other side" don't share your views, your perspectives, your moral compass, your culture. This is where I stopped using the term "class divide" some time back, because it's not about "an impoverished and disenfranchised class within our culture", really. It's a separate culture altogether, occupying the American landscape alongside us, but ultimately doing so divided from us by wholly differing perspectives about the basic realities of life.
So, essentially when our people try to address their people and explain why they should stop using drugs, joining gangs, being prostitutes, dropping out of school, having fatherless children etc, it nominally has all the effect of telling Eskimos the benefits of a 401(k).
I realize that much of this is terribly un-PC, but think on the last few times members of the "other culture" came on TalkBack in some numbers. Not only did we find ourselves speaking to each other in two completely different languages, but also from perspectives that neither side seemed able to wrap their minds around. And, in one instance, we were labeled as culturally insensitive.
Think about that.
As much as I wanted to believe, at the time, that the charge was a catch-phrase picked up in church or from some ACORN-type, I find that I'm more inclined to think the writer really meant it. "You don't get us".
And if the plain truth is to be spoken, the vast majority of "us" don't get "them". And "they" don't get "us".
One nation, two distinct cultures. Divided along socio-economic lines to a large degree to be sure, but equally divided by nearly all aspects of "perceiving the world around us" as well.
And in my mind, at least, this is the honest place from which any conversation about change must begin. Acknowledge the disease, openly, then start looking for a cure. If there is one.
We persist in talking about symptoms, when in truth we need to look at the disease as a whole and give it a name before we can productively talk about a cure.
See, it's not just about choices or opportunities, it's about the perspective, the world view from which you see and measure them. And those on the "other side" don't share your views, your perspectives, your moral compass, your culture. This is where I stopped using the term "class divide" some time back, because it's not about "an impoverished and disenfranchised class within our culture", really. It's a separate culture altogether, occupying the American landscape alongside us, but ultimately doing so divided from us by wholly differing perspectives about the basic realities of life.
So, essentially when our people try to address their people and explain why they should stop using drugs, joining gangs, being prostitutes, dropping out of school, having fatherless children etc, it nominally has all the effect of telling Eskimos the benefits of a 401(k).
I realize that much of this is terribly un-PC, but think on the last few times members of the "other culture" came on TalkBack in some numbers. Not only did we find ourselves speaking to each other in two completely different languages, but also from perspectives that neither side seemed able to wrap their minds around. And, in one instance, we were labeled as culturally insensitive.
Think about that.
As much as I wanted to believe, at the time, that the charge was a catch-phrase picked up in church or from some ACORN-type, I find that I'm more inclined to think the writer really meant it. "You don't get us".
And if the plain truth is to be spoken, the vast majority of "us" don't get "them". And "they" don't get "us".
One nation, two distinct cultures. Divided along socio-economic lines to a large degree to be sure, but equally divided by nearly all aspects of "perceiving the world around us" as well.
And in my mind, at least, this is the honest place from which any conversation about change must begin. Acknowledge the disease, openly, then start looking for a cure. If there is one.
Really? You assume that all posters on TB were born with silver spoons in our mouths. You consider me "us" now, but I was raised "them". It wasn't welfare or ACORN or charity or being viewed as "them" and somehow different in what we needed that brought my entire extended family out of wracking poverty. It was education.
That's why we work as hard as we can with organizations in Lancaster that challenge and have expectations of the poor, "them" in your language, as we have for our own children. Because they are really aren't "them" at all.
QUOTE (ceejay @ Sep 24 2009, 02:15 PM)
Really? You assume that all posters on TB were born with silver spoons in our mouths. You consider me "us" now, but I was raised "them".
WOW, did my last post fly over your head. Either that or you were speed reading and missed the several instances where I noted the divide is really between cultures, NOT classes, in the traditional sense.
In short - this isn't really about "poor people" anymore, and I'm surprised you managed to miss that in the midst of my fairly candid writing.
Or, possibly I threw you a loop when I started using "us and them" in a context that lies outside your personal history with the phrase. Go back and read again. There are no "silver spoons" in the equation, just vast differences between two cultural value bases.
QUOTE (citydweller @ Sep 24 2009, 06:35 PM)
WOW, did my last post fly over your head. Either that or you were speed reading and missed the several instances where I noted the divide is really between cultures, NOT classes, in the traditional sense.
In short - this isn't really about "poor people" anymore, and I'm surprised you managed to miss that in the midst of my fairly candid writing.
Or, possibly I threw you a loop when I started using "us and them" in a context that lies outside your personal history with the phrase. Go back and read again. There are no "silver spoons" in the equation, just vast differences between two cultural value bases.
In short - this isn't really about "poor people" anymore, and I'm surprised you managed to miss that in the midst of my fairly candid writing.
Or, possibly I threw you a loop when I started using "us and them" in a context that lies outside your personal history with the phrase. Go back and read again. There are no "silver spoons" in the equation, just vast differences between two cultural value bases.
And I am stating unequivocally that you cannot define or confine a "culture" of poverty. If you want to break it down and address each ethnic and racial and geographic poverty group fine. Let's make our lists and compare.
But you also cannot define and confine a "culture" of wealth, prosperity, or middle class-ness. And that is where the whole liberal method of addressing these vast problems becomes a problem. The simplistic, naive, even if well-meaning one size fits all poor is why the poor are bound and enslaved to the government dole.
And "you don't get us" is a total cop-out. It is a statement made by someone who does not want to change in order to prosper, who just wants to be supported from cradle to grave without working. I get it. And so do most thinking observers.
QUOTE (ceejay @ Sep 24 2009, 07:14 PM)
I get it. And so does everyone else.
I'm not sure that "everyone else" would agree with that statement.
QUOTE (citydweller @ Sep 24 2009, 07:18 PM)
I'm not sure that "everyone else" would agree with that statement.
Noted and corrected.
QUOTE (citydweller @ Sep 24 2009, 02:22 AM)
More on this later, but here's a snippet from a blog post I made earlier tonight elsewhere on the ACORN subject. Enjoy.
Chew on that for a while, as you busily demonize eevul demokratz and ignore the underlying realities that make all this happen.
Chew on that for a while, as you busily demonize eevul demokratz and ignore the underlying realities that make all this happen.
I don't have to chew on it very long to realize it doesn't make sense.
If you want Federal money you have to play by the rules....or you don't get the money. If you break the rules....you certainly don't get the money.
Rather than trying pull these people up to be constructive members of society you just want to make excuse after excuse for them and let them continue to sponge off everyone else.
BTW, what society on this planet thinks it is okay to illegally bring underage girls into the USA, pimp them out and don't pay any taxes?
QUOTE (Save-the-Land @ Sep 24 2009, 07:36 PM)
I don't have to chew on it very long to realize it doesn't make sense.
If you want Federal money you have to play by the rules....or you don't get the money. If you break the rules....you certainly don't get the money.
If you want Federal money you have to play by the rules....or you don't get the money. If you break the rules....you certainly don't get the money.
Sigh.... I'm starting to see with new eyes why the truthful discussion about what lies beneath all of this may never happen.
Save-your-Breath - Go back and re-read everything I've written in this thread, like 5 times. I'm not defending anyone, nor am I 'esplainin' why anyone should have federal funding.
I'm pointing out that the ACORN fiasco is merely a minor symptom of a much larger and more serious problem within our nation that everyone seems to want to ignore in leu of more mundane crap they can scream about incessantly, without having to actually think or act, responsibly, in the best interest of the nation, and society.
You and CeeJay could be the poster children for this phenomenae. I'm betting at this point that neither of you has one shred of a clue as to what I've been talking about. Only a vague idea of what you'd like me to be talking about. And your desired discussion is what you respond to. Schiite, we are doomed.
QUOTE (ceejay @ Sep 24 2009, 11:12 AM)
Your well-written piece ignores the fact that at the core of much ongoing poverty is drugs. Most prostitutes are drug-addicted, and turning tricks is the way to get their daily quota either on the streets or from the pimp who is also their supplier.
It also ignores generational poverty fed by poor example and lousy life choices. And the answer isn't to keep pouring money into the bottomless bucket or to politically elect those who will keep the money flowing. All that has done for decades is keep the poor enslaved and beholden to the government for their subsistence.
The only ticket out of poverty is education, and intervention by role models to keep children in school. But when the drug culture uses 11 year old kids as "runners" and pays them in $50s to deliver, and when selling drugs nets you thousands when flipping burgers nets you minimum wage, the lure is too strong.
http://www.childrenofthenight.org
http://www.popcenter.org/problems/street_prostitution
http://www.ontheissues.org/Al_Gore_Welfare_&_Poverty.htm
It also ignores generational poverty fed by poor example and lousy life choices. And the answer isn't to keep pouring money into the bottomless bucket or to politically elect those who will keep the money flowing. All that has done for decades is keep the poor enslaved and beholden to the government for their subsistence.
The only ticket out of poverty is education, and intervention by role models to keep children in school. But when the drug culture uses 11 year old kids as "runners" and pays them in $50s to deliver, and when selling drugs nets you thousands when flipping burgers nets you minimum wage, the lure is too strong.
http://www.childrenofthenight.org
http://www.popcenter.org/problems/street_prostitution
http://www.ontheissues.org/Al_Gore_Welfare_&_Poverty.htm
Excellent. I wasn't sure where you were going, but you are spot.
QUOTE (citydweller @ Sep 24 2009, 08:24 PM)
Sigh.... I'm starting to see with new eyes why the truthful discussion about what lies beneath all of this may never happen.
Save-your-Breath - Go back and re-read everything I've written in this thread, like 5 times. I'm not defending anyone, nor am I 'esplainin' why anyone should have federal funding.
I'm pointing out that the ACORN fiasco is merely a minor symptom of a much larger and more serious problem within our nation that everyone seems to want to ignore in leu of more mundane crap they can scream about incessantly, without having to actually think or act, responsibly, in the best interest of the nation, and society.
You and CeeJay could be the poster children for this phenomenae. I'm betting at this point that neither of you has one shred of a clue as to what I've been talking about. Only a vague idea of what you'd like me to be talking about. And your desired discussion is what you respond to. Schiite, we are doomed.
Save-your-Breath - Go back and re-read everything I've written in this thread, like 5 times. I'm not defending anyone, nor am I 'esplainin' why anyone should have federal funding.
I'm pointing out that the ACORN fiasco is merely a minor symptom of a much larger and more serious problem within our nation that everyone seems to want to ignore in leu of more mundane crap they can scream about incessantly, without having to actually think or act, responsibly, in the best interest of the nation, and society.
You and CeeJay could be the poster children for this phenomenae. I'm betting at this point that neither of you has one shred of a clue as to what I've been talking about. Only a vague idea of what you'd like me to be talking about. And your desired discussion is what you respond to. Schiite, we are doomed.
You, ACORN, and liberal approach to these massive societal problems is as simplistic as you would like to paint those you perceive to be on the other side.
Poverty isn't one-size-fits-all. Mississippi deep south poverty isn't W. VA appalachia poverty isn't E. LA poverty isn't Chicago Cabrini Green poverty isn't illegal immigrant or migrant worker poverty, isn't Lancaster Ward poverty.
And for the record, there are a lot, perhaps a majority, of poor people who have strong ethical, moral, and legal sensibilities, and a sense of honor that would never let them do just "anything to get by".
And the line "nobody else is looking out for your butt in this society anyway" is the crux of the matter. Generations of immigrants have looked out for themselves (and each other). That Liberal mindset of needing a Nanny State to take care of us, look out for us, is what is dooming us.
QUOTE (ceejay @ Sep 24 2009, 11:05 PM)
Poverty isn't one-size-fits-all. Mississippi deep south poverty isn't W. VA appalachia poverty isn't E. LA poverty isn't Chicago Cabrini Green poverty isn't illegal immigrant or migrant worker poverty, isn't Lancaster Ward poverty.
And for the record, there are a lot, perhaps a majority, of poor people who have strong ethical, moral, and legal sensibilities, and a sense of honor that would never let them do just "anything to get by".
And for the record, there are a lot, perhaps a majority, of poor people who have strong ethical, moral, and legal sensibilities, and a sense of honor that would never let them do just "anything to get by".
Correct and correct, insofar as these statements hold truth in them.
But AGAIN, this isn't about poverty, strictly speaking. It's about culture. A culture that exists outside of "mainstream" American society, holding a vastly different set of core values, morals and beliefs. Like the "mainstream", this other culture isn't one-size-fits-all, and can't be narrowly defined by simplistic identifiers like being poor or coming from a particular ethnic group. There isn't a file on it at the Southern Poverty Law Center, and to truly define it comprehensively would probably take a thesis-length paper.
But the other culture is there. And my point about the ACORN workers and their attitudes is simply that they are symptomatic of this other culture, and that all the wailing about "democrat plots and machinations" is nothing more than continuing to refuse to step back and see it for what it really is.
QUOTE (citydweller @ Sep 25 2009, 01:29 PM)
Correct and correct, insofar as these statements hold truth in them.
But AGAIN, this isn't about poverty, strictly speaking. It's about culture. A culture that exists outside of "mainstream" American society, holding a vastly different set of core values, morals and beliefs. Like the "mainstream", this other culture isn't one-size-fits-all, and can't be narrowly defined by simplistic identifiers like being poor or coming from a particular ethnic group. There isn't a file on it at the Southern Poverty Law Center, and to truly define it comprehensively would probably take a thesis-length paper.
But the other culture is there. And my point about the ACORN workers and their attitudes is simply that they are symptomatic of this other culture, and that all the wailing about "democrat plots and machinations" is nothing more than continuing to refuse to step back and see it for what it really is.
But AGAIN, this isn't about poverty, strictly speaking. It's about culture. A culture that exists outside of "mainstream" American society, holding a vastly different set of core values, morals and beliefs. Like the "mainstream", this other culture isn't one-size-fits-all, and can't be narrowly defined by simplistic identifiers like being poor or coming from a particular ethnic group. There isn't a file on it at the Southern Poverty Law Center, and to truly define it comprehensively would probably take a thesis-length paper.
But the other culture is there. And my point about the ACORN workers and their attitudes is simply that they are symptomatic of this other culture, and that all the wailing about "democrat plots and machinations" is nothing more than continuing to refuse to step back and see it for what it really is.
Lazy people who refuse to work expecting the Nanny State to take care of all their needs, and hating everyone who doesn't take care of them in the manner to which they would like to become accustomed? And ACORN feeds that and profits from it, and keeps people enslaved and beholden to them.
QUOTE (citydweller @ Sep 25 2009, 01:29 PM)
Correct and correct, insofar as these statements hold truth in them.
But AGAIN, this isn't about poverty, strictly speaking. It's about culture. A culture that exists outside of "mainstream" American society, holding a vastly different set of core values, morals and beliefs. Like the "mainstream", this other culture isn't one-size-fits-all, and can't be narrowly defined by simplistic identifiers like being poor or coming from a particular ethnic group. There isn't a file on it at the Southern Poverty Law Center, and to truly define it comprehensively would probably take a thesis-length paper.
But AGAIN, this isn't about poverty, strictly speaking. It's about culture. A culture that exists outside of "mainstream" American society, holding a vastly different set of core values, morals and beliefs. Like the "mainstream", this other culture isn't one-size-fits-all, and can't be narrowly defined by simplistic identifiers like being poor or coming from a particular ethnic group. There isn't a file on it at the Southern Poverty Law Center, and to truly define it comprehensively would probably take a thesis-length paper.
I've always defined it as a sub-culture, one which I deal with frequently. I tend to agree that the sub-culture adheres to a vastly different set of ideals than the larger culture. The problem is that these values are counter productive to a successful existence, or at least an existence that isn't marred by addiction, incarceration and poverty.
Changing this thinking has always been our challenge, and I can say that simply teaching traditional moral values on an individual level doesn't work. Not to get into a whole dissertation on what does work, but the only place to start is by recognizing the belief system of the sub-culture, finding things to admire in the individual despite their counter productive beliefs, and encouraging change gradually.
QUOTE (citydweller @ Sep 24 2009, 01:19 PM)
So, essentially when our people try to address their people and explain why they should stop using drugs, joining gangs, being prostitutes, dropping out of school, having fatherless children etc, it nominally has all the effect of telling Eskimos the benefits of a 401(k).
Especially fatherless children. Talk to a teenager in the sub culture and there is no recognition of the ill effects of having a child at the age of 14, 15, or 16. In fact, there is status associated with having a child and being a father. The sad part is that for most young men, growing up without their dad is probably the most painful of their childhood memories, of which they swear they will never visit on their own children. Of course, they do exactly that. The disconnect is almost incomprehensible.
QUOTE (Pericles @ Sep 25 2009, 02:08 PM)
I've always defined it as a sub-culture, one which I deal with frequently.
I tended to do the same, using the term "class divide" to describe the differences between "us & them", until recently.
I now refer to it as a "cultural divide" because I honestly don't think we're talking about a sub-culture any longer. It was probably the case in the past, when the majority of the "ghetto culture" was truly part of the welfare/nanny state and was largely urbanized and tied very closely to the "trans-generational poverty cycle".
But that just isn't true anymore. The neat little "livin' on the gummint teat" label isn't a true descriptive of the whole of this culture. It's members are black, white, latino, asian and any other color/ethnicity you can name. Some "get a check", but just as many work, over or under the table. Many are single-parents of multiple children, but just as many are married with one or two kids. And I could go on and on, because the "stereotypes" that have traditionally pigeon-holed members of this culture are many and varied, but few of them apply any longer as blanket identifiers.
In short, things have changed.
The "sub-culture" has evolved into a "separate culture". One that isn't strictly identifiable by socio-economic demarcation lines. "Born into" has been replaced by "opt into". You could reasonably call it a "lifestyle choice" at this point, although why one would choose it boggles the minds of those of us who think righting a "diss" with a gun is just stupid.
But, at the end of the day, it's there. The elephant in the middle of the room. The question, to me, is how long it will take until others notice it standing there.
QUOTE (Kate @ Sep 23 2009, 02:20 PM)
I'd like to know if the US Catholic Church will continue to fund ACORN in light of recent revelations about ACORN.
I am disappointed to know the Catholic Church supports this organization.
I am disappointed to know the Catholic Church supports this organization.
You're disappointed? The same church that enabled pedophile priests?
QUOTE (citydweller @ Sep 24 2009, 02:22 AM)
More on this later, but here's a snippet from a blog post I made earlier tonight elsewhere on the ACORN subject. Enjoy.
Chew on that for a while, as you busily demonize eevul demokratz and ignore the underlying realities that make all this happen.
Chew on that for a while, as you busily demonize eevul demokratz and ignore the underlying realities that make all this happen.
So they have to put up with the same treatment the Irish, Italians, Poles, Russian Jews, and just about every other disadvantaged immigrant group except they had the benefit of Great Society programs.
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