http://www.msnbc.com/local/wnyt/m276307.as...?0ct=-302&cp1=1
GUILDERLAND, N.Y., March 4 - A Selkirk man says he was arrested Monday for expressing his objection to possible war with Iraq at Crossgates Mall. He says all he did was wear a T-shirt bearing a message of peace, which he actually purchased in the mall.
By Lindsay Cohen
STEPHEN DOWNS AND his son, Roger Downs, each had a pro-peace shirt made Monday night. One shirt simply said "Let Inspections Work" on one side and "No War With Iraq" on the other. The other shirt said "Give Peace A Chance" on the front and "Peace On Earth" on the back. The men paid about $23 for each of the shirts and then wore them in the mall.
"We were just shopping. We were wearing these T-shirts. We weren't handing out leaflets, we weren't saying anything," Roger Downs recalled.
They may not have been saying anything, but they were creating enough of a disturbance to one employee, who called security.
Security asked Downs and his son to remove their shirts. Roger Downs complied, but when Stephen Downs wouldn't, he was told to leave the mall. When he refused, he was arrested.
"This struck me as a powerful way of expressing myself. I wanted to do something peaceful," he said.
Roger Downs says he is proud of his father.
"I'm impressed that he's refused to have his civil rights violated," Roger Downs said.
New York Civil Liberties Union President Stephen Gottlieb says he can't believe the peaceful T-shirts could lead to Downs' arrest. "We believe, most of us, in the Bill of Rights, and we believe that protects the freedom to speak. Well, if there's a freedom of speech, where do we get to do it?" Gottlieb asked.
Gottlieb says he believes there is a law protecting peoples' rights to free speech, even in shopping malls.
Guilderland police say they arrested Downs because he refused to leave private property. That, they say, is trespassing. Representatives for Crossgates did not return calls for comment Tuesday.
Signs posted at entrances to the mall say that "wearing of apparel... likely to provoke disturbances... is prohibited" at the mall.
Full Version: Wear an Anti-War T-Shirt, Get Arrested
You VILL comply vith the new Reich or you VILL be arrested!!
Seig Heil!!
Der Furher Bush
Seig Heil!!
Der Furher Bush
i downloaded the "coming soon" movie poster and made tee shirts.
no one has been arrested yet. lol
scroll down until you find the 'coming soon' topic. click on to see movie poster.
great t-shirt!
no one has been arrested yet. lol
scroll down until you find the 'coming soon' topic. click on to see movie poster.
great t-shirt!
Mixxster,
i'm certainly not a lawyer, nor would i wear the t-shirt, but the grounds for arrest sound pretty fishy to me.
i realize that most shopping malls are considered private property, so i suppose it's ok to arrest someone for refusing to leave the property, but
a) does that give the property owners a blank check to toss out anybody at their own discretion?
b) was there an actual disturbance or not:
just what "disturbance" did security think was being caused? the article doesn't specify. and if all they did was wear the t-shirt and a "disturbance" ensued, then obviously somebody else reacted disturbed and why weren't they arrested, too?
i'm certainly not a lawyer, nor would i wear the t-shirt, but the grounds for arrest sound pretty fishy to me.
i realize that most shopping malls are considered private property, so i suppose it's ok to arrest someone for refusing to leave the property, but
a) does that give the property owners a blank check to toss out anybody at their own discretion?
b) was there an actual disturbance or not:
just what "disturbance" did security think was being caused? the article doesn't specify. and if all they did was wear the t-shirt and a "disturbance" ensued, then obviously somebody else reacted disturbed and why weren't they arrested, too?
a) does that give the property owners a blank check to toss out anybody at their own discretion?
Speakup,
I'm no lawyer either but I guess the amll cops think so. I have found out since I posted this that Stephen Downs is a lawyer. Not just any lawyer but according to http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/reuters200 30304_651.html://http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/reute... 30304_651.html://http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/reute... 30304_651.html
he's "the director of the Albany Office of the state Commission on Judicial Conduct, which investigates complaints of misconduct against judges and can admonish, censure or remove judges found to have engaged in misconduct."
b) was there an actual disturbance or not:
just what "disturbance" did security think was being caused? the article doesn't specify. and if all they did was wear the t-shirt and a "disturbance" ensued, then obviously somebody else reacted disturbed and why weren't they arrested, too?
Got me. I read somewhere that a Macy's employee called security. I haven't found any articles reporting any actual disturbance.
[ 03-05-2003, 14:56: Message edited by: Mixxster ]
Speakup,
I'm no lawyer either but I guess the amll cops think so. I have found out since I posted this that Stephen Downs is a lawyer. Not just any lawyer but according to http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/reuters200 30304_651.html://http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/reute... 30304_651.html://http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/reute... 30304_651.html
he's "the director of the Albany Office of the state Commission on Judicial Conduct, which investigates complaints of misconduct against judges and can admonish, censure or remove judges found to have engaged in misconduct."
b) was there an actual disturbance or not:
just what "disturbance" did security think was being caused? the article doesn't specify. and if all they did was wear the t-shirt and a "disturbance" ensued, then obviously somebody else reacted disturbed and why weren't they arrested, too?
Got me. I read somewhere that a Macy's employee called security. I haven't found any articles reporting any actual disturbance.
[ 03-05-2003, 14:56: Message edited by: Mixxster ]
Well, Daisy, don't be wearing it at Crossgates Mall in New York.
Some friends and I have been tossing this story around in an email thread today. I'll post one of my comments from that thread, verbatim:
"I think that ultimately, a shopping mall is property as private as one's house, like any other retail business would be.
This is in contrast to, say, Penn Square, which is property that is actually and expressly dedicated for public use. Or Central Market, which as a government-owned space, probably has anti-discrimination regulations to comply with. In either place, it's probably not legal to toss someone out for wearing a shirt supporting nonviolence. These regulations do not apply in the same manner to private property... you will often see signs in commercial establishments that say something like, "we reserve the right to deny service at any time for any reason." The customer is NOT always right.
Still, on principle the case is ridiculous and I'm sure the defendants will have no trouble getting their records cleared."
Dave Straub
Lancaster, PA
"I think that ultimately, a shopping mall is property as private as one's house, like any other retail business would be.
This is in contrast to, say, Penn Square, which is property that is actually and expressly dedicated for public use. Or Central Market, which as a government-owned space, probably has anti-discrimination regulations to comply with. In either place, it's probably not legal to toss someone out for wearing a shirt supporting nonviolence. These regulations do not apply in the same manner to private property... you will often see signs in commercial establishments that say something like, "we reserve the right to deny service at any time for any reason." The customer is NOT always right.
Still, on principle the case is ridiculous and I'm sure the defendants will have no trouble getting their records cleared."
Dave Straub
Lancaster, PA
"Trespassing" charges have been dropped against the man who refused to remove his controversial t-shirt. I guess the protest from this misdemeanor charge was too much for the mall owners. 
The biggest problem I have with this whole story is he bought the shirt in the Mall... SO the stores in the mall can sell these types of shirts but the people that but them get arrested?? Just plain stupid!
another angle from the Wall Street Journal Online:
"Man Arrested for 'Peace' T-Shirt" read the headline on the Tuesday Reuters dispatch. "Marchers Protest Arrest of Man for Wearing Peace T-Shirt at Crossgates" the Albany Times-Union reported the next day. (Crossgates is an Albany-area shopping mall.) Sounds like an outrageous case of censorship, doesn't it? But it turns out to be an urban legend.
First, as even the early news stories made clear, the man in the shirt, Steve Downs, was arrested not for wearing a shirt but for trespassing. According to Reuters' "report," a mall security guard asked Downs to remove his "Give peace a chance" shirt or turn it inside-out. "When Downs refused the security officers' orders, police from the town of Guilderland were called and he was arrested and taken away in handcuffs, charged with trespassing."
Although the mall may have the legal right to eject someone for wearing an offensive shirt, the action as described by Reuters certainly sounds like overkill. But Reuters leaves out a crucial part of the allegation, which appears on the arrest report, obtained by The Smoking Gun: The security guards had received complaints that Downs and his "partner" (actually his son, according to the Times-Union) "were stopping other shoppers." The security guard's deposition says that a customer had complained "that the two gentlemen [sic] were having a verbal dispute with another group of individuals in the mall. The customer was afraid of what may come out of the dispute, so she wanted to let someone know." Sounds more like disturbing the peace than protecting it.
There's another odd angle to this story: The New York Law Journal reports that Downs is the chief lawyer for the state's Commission on Judicial Conduct. "Last month, U.S. District Judge David N. Hurd in Utica, N.Y., shot down as unconstitutionally vague provisions in the Code of Judicial Conduct that restrain the political speech of judges and judicial candidates." Downs's office had prosecuted a judge for taking part in political activities. The law journal notes that "there are no allegations that Downs violated any ethics code -- he is not a judge, and therefore not subject to the Code of Judicial Conduct."
eury,
they bought the shirts in the mall and put the slogans on at home, then went back to the mall.
"Man Arrested for 'Peace' T-Shirt" read the headline on the Tuesday Reuters dispatch. "Marchers Protest Arrest of Man for Wearing Peace T-Shirt at Crossgates" the Albany Times-Union reported the next day. (Crossgates is an Albany-area shopping mall.) Sounds like an outrageous case of censorship, doesn't it? But it turns out to be an urban legend.
First, as even the early news stories made clear, the man in the shirt, Steve Downs, was arrested not for wearing a shirt but for trespassing. According to Reuters' "report," a mall security guard asked Downs to remove his "Give peace a chance" shirt or turn it inside-out. "When Downs refused the security officers' orders, police from the town of Guilderland were called and he was arrested and taken away in handcuffs, charged with trespassing."
Although the mall may have the legal right to eject someone for wearing an offensive shirt, the action as described by Reuters certainly sounds like overkill. But Reuters leaves out a crucial part of the allegation, which appears on the arrest report, obtained by The Smoking Gun: The security guards had received complaints that Downs and his "partner" (actually his son, according to the Times-Union) "were stopping other shoppers." The security guard's deposition says that a customer had complained "that the two gentlemen [sic] were having a verbal dispute with another group of individuals in the mall. The customer was afraid of what may come out of the dispute, so she wanted to let someone know." Sounds more like disturbing the peace than protecting it.
There's another odd angle to this story: The New York Law Journal reports that Downs is the chief lawyer for the state's Commission on Judicial Conduct. "Last month, U.S. District Judge David N. Hurd in Utica, N.Y., shot down as unconstitutionally vague provisions in the Code of Judicial Conduct that restrain the political speech of judges and judicial candidates." Downs's office had prosecuted a judge for taking part in political activities. The law journal notes that "there are no allegations that Downs violated any ethics code -- he is not a judge, and therefore not subject to the Code of Judicial Conduct."
eury,
they bought the shirts in the mall and put the slogans on at home, then went back to the mall.
Boy the media has a way of twisting things around don't they.. thank you that put a whole new light on this situation.
RE: One shirt simply said "Let Inspections Work" on one side and "No War With Iraq" on the other.
LET INSPECTIONS WORK? Inspections should not show any type of weapons since according to Resolution 1441, all weapons were to be surrendered. But the fact that inspectors are finding weapons, indicates non-compliance. Duh!
There are a lot of people on here who dig to the nitty gritty to find the truth.
This BB is a good stop.
LET INSPECTIONS WORK? Inspections should not show any type of weapons since according to Resolution 1441, all weapons were to be surrendered. But the fact that inspectors are finding weapons, indicates non-compliance. Duh!
There are a lot of people on here who dig to the nitty gritty to find the truth.
This BB is a good stop.
Wrong speakup!
They bought the shirts at the mall. They were decorated at the tee-shirt shop with iron on slogans.
They bought the shirts at the mall. They were decorated at the tee-shirt shop with iron on slogans.
In the latest act in the Crossgates Mall farce. The mall security guard that approached Steven Downs has been terminated and told he is not elegible for unemployment compensation by mall officials. The reason he was given was he signed the arrest warrent againt Downs. That he did this on orders from his supervisor made no difference. The mall decided they needed a scapegoat to deflect all the bad publicity. Too bad the Crossgate Mall employees aren't union, he would be reinstated with back pay. As there is onone to speak for him we can only hope those that protested Down's arrest will speak up for the unfair fireing of the security guard.
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