The company I work for has several hundred employees in Canada, spread out among various locations. I have personally spent a grand total of several months in Canada working with some of them. I still have regular contact with some of my co-workers located in Canada.

Their stories parallel what is reported in this article.

I clearly remember the article in one of the local newspapers some years ago where a local man with a young family had received a heart transplant, and the ongoing costs had bankrupted them. The newspaper article reported him saying that he wished he had refused the transplant and died instead, because of all the turmoil the resulting costs had created. Compare this to the experiences of the son of a Canadian friend, who pays about $100 a month for the medications he needs to keep his body from rejecting the transplanted heart he received.

So the answer to healthcare and insurance that costs too much is to remove the most powerful cost-controlling influence there is, by taking the consumer even more out of the bill paying loop, and giving that restraint on cost to a government that largely doesn't care how it much it spends, and how much it wastes ?
This debate is largely ridiculous when you consider that some state(s) have reduced insurance premiums by 30 to 40 percent just by passing tort reform - something that Washington Democrats, the largest receiver of trial lawyer campaign contributions, have refused to do.
So we are supposed to go to a government takeover of healthcare because Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid don't want to give up the bucks ?
Or that the problem isn't that Medicare only reimburses a fraction of the costs, but that the problem is really the greedy insurance companies who are forced to make up the difference while reaping vast sums of immoral profits so great that it puts them 35th on the list compared to other industries overall profitability.
Lies, lies, lies.
Did anyone watch the 60 minutes story on Medicare fraud the other night ?
An FBI agent said that fraud has now surpassed illegal drugs in Miami, and one of the few people they managed to catch said that cheating the government out of millions of dollars in false claims was like taking candy from a baby.
This isn't about reform, this is about how to hide making the problem worse.

Yes, please don't reduce the massive POWER that I, the working guy on the company plan, has to control the cost of my insurance...I'm thinking I'll go with a 45% increase this year, you know, as a treat for the kids.

Still cheaper when you look at your alternative.

Really? What alternative are you referring to?

Please note: Whatever claim you make, I will ask you to cite proof and telling me that I am stupid and not worth the time will not count as actual evidence to support your claim.

fyi

oct 23, 09


Medicare Fraud - 60 Minutes - CBS News

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=541...entBody;housing



web link:

Medicare Fraud: A $60 Billion Crime - 60 Minutes - CBS News

"According to the FBI, all you have to do to get into this business is rent a cheap storefront office, find or create a front man to get an occupational license, bribe a doctor or forge a prescription pad, and obtain the names and ID numbers of legitimate Medicare patients you can bill the phony charges to.

"There's a whole industry of people out there that do nothing but provide patients," Waterman told Kroft.

Asked what he means by "provide patients," Waterman said, "I'm just talking about lists of patients, people's names, Social Security numbers, addresses, and date of birth. With those four things, you can bill for a patient."

Asked where Tony got his fictitious customers, he told Kroft, "They'll be people that would sell you a list of maybe $10 per patient. And I'll buy 1,000, 10,000 maybe at a time. And then you just fill in the patient's name and you send it. And then I used the same patients with the same company and then the next company I used the same patients and I kept using them, and they'll pay for the same patient every time."

Once"






http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/10/23/...ain;contentBody



message board:

"I find it more interesting that instead of announcing this as a multipart investigation, delving deeply into this very real problem, CBS chose to go for glamour and the glitz by interviewing the FBI and a criminal rather than ask the question as to who actually administers the Medicare Claims.

The government selects independent contractors to administer the Medicare Claims. Who are these companies? What was the criteria for their selection? Under whose guidance were they selected? Who are the elected officials on the oversight panels for these contractors?

Further, what relationship do these contractors have with insurance companies? What relationship do the elected officials have with lobbyists for the insurance companies?

I believe Sixty Minutes has left too many questions unasked. "

So you pay for your coverage all by yourself then. Unless you do, you have no reason to complain.

The alternative I speak of is the millions of dollars we will all be paying for insurance coverage under the govt. plan which you so covet. Remember in all countries which have it there is still costs on top of the govt. plan if you want decent coverage. So you'll be paying higher taxes to fund the govt. plan and you or your employer will still be paying for another plan if you want coverage worth a damn.

Remember there is no proof from our govt. yet to show you! They have no damn idea how much and where the money is going to come from. The only thing they've told us is that something has got to change. According to who?

FTR, I don't recall calling you names like stupid? If I did well I'm surprised at that, you must have caught me at a really bad time? As for you being worth my time, well, you're not worth my time one bit.

text from 60 minutes..

Medicare Fraud: A $60 Billion Crime - 60 Minutes - CBS News

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/10/23/...in5414390.shtml

Yes, this debate IS ridiculous. The health care industry - insurance companies, hospitals, pharmaceutical companies, etc. - have had DECADES to get their act together. All they have managed to do is increase prices more and more and more and more. If they haven't gotten their prices under control by now, they never will. After all, their only incentive is PROFIT - in other words, their shareholders are far more important to them than their customers and patients.

It is simplistic to think that tort reform alone will correct our problems, when the health insurance companies themselves waste 30% or more of our health care dollars - then try to get out of paying for the health care we really need on every occasion that they think they can get away with it.

We are in EXACTLY the same situation that workplace, food, and medicine safety were about a century ago. Food safety wasn't dealt with until the government got involved. Workplace safety wasn't dealt with until tragedy after tragedy brought government regulation. Even Coca-Cola contained cocaine at one time!

To make the (often false) claim that government doesn't care how much it spends is nothing more than a distraction from the real issues. I just found out today that starting Jan. 1 I will be paying about $20 more every two weeks just for health insurance premiums (with a 20% deductible), while our co-pays will be increasing by two-thirds (family doctor from $15 to $25, specialist from $25 to $40). Our more comprehensive health insurance plan (5% deductible) will increase in cost for two people from over $160 to well over $270 EVERY TWO WEEKS.

Health care in the United States will continue to become increasingly unaffordable until the government steps in and introduces some real regulation. The longer the delay, the more painful it will become. Health care costs are already stifling our economy, far more than any government debt. Eventually, it WILL become SO painful that there will be a huge public outcry for government regulation. It might not happen this year or next, but unless the government intervenes first, it WILL HAPPEN.

"IF" the gov't is doing a great job of regulatiing "MEDICARE,"

WHY do we have FRAUD?



Medicare Fraud to the tune of $60 BILLION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



MORE than MIAMI ILLEGAL drug trade!

**********
Text from 60 minutes..

Medicare Fraud: A $60 Billion Crime - 60 Minutes - CBS News

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/10/23/...in5414390.shtml

daisy

miami beach

"Waterman is the senior agent in the Miami office in charge of Medicare fraud. And Kirk Ogrosky, a top Justice Department prosecutor, oversees half a dozen Medicare fraud strike forces that have been set up across the country.

CBS-60 MINUTES- 10/23/09

*******************
60 BILLION MEDICARE FRAUD

"The office Kroft visited operates out of a warehouse at a secret location in South Florida and includes investigators from the FBI, Health and Human Services, and the IRS.

"There's a healthcare fraud industry where people do nothing but recruit patients, get patient lists, find doctors, look on the Internet, find different scams. There are entire groups and entire organizations of people that are dedicated to nothing but committing fraud, finding a better way to steal from Medicare," Waterman explained.



"IS the Medicare fraud business BIGGER than the DRUG business in Miami now?"

Kroft asked.

"I think it's WAY bigger," Ogrosky said.

Asked what changed, Ogrosky told Kroft, "The criminals changed."

"Sophistication," Waterman added."






http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/10/23/...in5414390.shtml

Great post Artie.
You touched on a point that people often forget when debating this issue.
The fact that health care reform is about more that health.
It has as much to do with our financial situation as a country.
If our personal health care costs continue as they have, it will cripple this country financially.


Health Insurance companies have been committing fraud for decades.
The problem is that it cost the average person more to fight the insurance industry than they can afford.

I struggle with what the answer is for our failing health-care delivery system. In some aspects it is really good, but in all areas it is really expensive. For the past 20 years and more, it has consistantly achieved increases in cost in excess of the growth in GNP. The result is that many companies and more individuals can no longer find ways of maintaining coverage.
However, there are trade-offs that are involved with increased government controls. The article points out that the local "second opinion" said that the care was what they would recommend. But the second opinion was achieved by visiting a quality physician within minutes travel, versus the six hour trip to their current caregiver. The quality of care was not the issue - the issue was the access versus the cost. I don't know that I could afford to drive from here to Boston on a regular basis for treatment any more than I can afford the family health coverage that I used to have.

Can the U.S gov't handle healthcare???

Answer: NO, NO, NO!
*************

The gov't is "incompetent" and they think they can run a health care system on a LARGER scale...

H@LL, their adventure with MEDICARE($60 BILLION FRAUD) proves they sux at regulation and management on a smaller scale.

SO, they don't get my seal of approval for a national health care system!








AND THE PRIVATE SECTOR SUXS TOO!!!

FLASHBACK: Rick Scott's Columbia/HCA Was Fined $1.7 Billion For Defrauding Medicare | Media Matters Action Network

http://mediamattersaction.org/blog/200906240003







daisy

miami beach

AND SO HAS HOSPITAL CHAINS LIKE HCA!









FLASHBACK: Rick Scott's Columbia/HCA Was Fined $1.7 Billion For Defrauding Medicare | Media Matters Action Network

link:

http://mediamattersaction.org/blog/200906240003

30 to 40% reduction in health insurance premiums? I don't think so. The CBO just this month estimated 0.2% reduction in health care costs with tort reform, ASSUMING indirect savings.



http://www.allbusiness.com/insurance/healt...12865340-1.html

Just another Republican mis-information campaign.

You might want to stop using roads, the postal service, flying while using the national airspace, national parks, public water, public schools, medicare, any of the armed forces, etc etc etc
If you have so little faith in the national government to handle things.

I would also like to see you stand up and oppose all of the above.
Those who oppose government run amenities usually don't understand that they rely on them every day.


So two wrongs make a right.
OK, I see where you stand.

Gosh, I wish I hadn't deleted that chart from the English edition of Der Spiegel, you know the one with the costs vs the number of doctors and hospital beds per 1000 people.
It seems that republican bozos have a propensity for ignoring facts (and truths) when it comes to pushing their agenda. So many of them repeat those canards here.
Daisy Lee, there is a reason for the Medicare fraud, republicans want it to fail so they just fund it enough to do so.
It's similar to the Amtrak funding, give it enough to survive but not enough to improve service. If the airline industry started losing passengers where would the campaign contributions to republicans come from?

the fed gov't can't afford to make mistakes in healthcare,

but, they have!!!!!!!



READ MY LIPS..

despite my protest..

National healthcare will pass sooner or later, but you won't have enough nurses and doctors to provide the care
for the 42 million etc.



PLEASE think what will happen after national health-care IS passed.

you got your health-care card in your wallet..

now, ask yourself...

where are the doctors?

where are the nurses?

where are the hospitals?

where are the clinics?...

to serve everyone?

they DON'T exist..

THE baby boomers in medicine and nursing will be out soon.. called.. "retired!"

GET IN THAT LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG LINE for treatment...

show me your health care card, but MORE importantly, show me who will treat you when you are sick?


There is not enough health care professionals to go around.

so, the health care card will be just a card in name only!


good luck!


daisy

miami beach

Per Capita Cost for Health Care in 2007

USA $6096

Netherlands $3092
Finland $2203
Austria $3418
UK $2560
Denmark $2780
Italy $2414
Germany $3171
Greece $2179
Canada $3173

The facts are that the government running it will be much cheaper.

The government has been in business for 233 years. Proof's in the pudding.

my 3 cents:

Find those doctors and nurses once you are insured..

the shortage will increase not DECREASE once 42 million are insured.

get in that long line...

where are the docs, nurses, clinics and hospitals after being insured?

they ain't there TO treat YOU!

SO, national health care will be in name ONLY!

G-DAY!

PS- i'm an advocate of each STATE taking care of their residents..
not the feds!

The government is not supposed to be 'in business'.......

Apples-to-oranges. Jobs did not become government entities, state-run farms were not created, the government did not get into the pharmaceutical business. These are regulated, not government run.

The government should regulate healthcare, not get into the business of it.

Could you give me a list of how well these are doing per capita too?
Not life expectancy, you can't go by that since Americans tend to lead the least healthy lifestyle of all of these, so they're expected to be at the bottom of the list.
Can't really use overall health, since again, Americans are really bad at taking basic steps to stay healthy, most of us are not born obese.
So pick some sort of measure to compare these, dollar for dollar doesn't work, because if you use that measure, store brand toilet paper would be best, and most of us know that's a pretty crappy outcome.

they are doing a sh*itty JOB OF REGULATING MEDICARE!

"Waterman is the senior agent in the Miami office in charge of Medicare fraud. And Kirk Ogrosky, a top Justice Department prosecutor, oversees half a dozen Medicare fraud strike forces that have been set up across the country.

CBS-60 MINUTES- 10/25/09

*******************
60 BILLION MEDICARE FRAUD

"The office Kroft visited operates out of a warehouse at a secret location in South Florida and includes investigators from the FBI, Health and Human Services, and the IRS.

"There's a healthcare fraud industry where people do nothing but recruit patients, get patient lists, find doctors, look on the Internet, find different scams. There are entire groups and entire organizations of people that are dedicated to nothing but committing fraud, finding a better way to steal from Medicare," Waterman explained.



"IS the Medicare fraud business BIGGER than the DRUG business in Miami now?"

Kroft asked.

"I think it's WAY bigger," Ogrosky said.

Asked what changed, Ogrosky told Kroft, "The criminals changed."

"Sophistication," Waterman added."






http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/10/23/...in5414390.shtml

What is a government for then?

You don't need all those building in D.C. just so they can all stand on the sidelines and not get involved.



OK, what would you like. It seems life expectancy would be best, but you say no to that - not for the reason you claim but because (more likely) it works against your argument.

I'm not about to look something up if you are just going to say "Nope" doesn't count.

How do YOU propose we measure this?

Vacate most of those buildings. The government is too fat as it is. Return governing to the states.



Healthcare and life expectancy in modern countries are mutually exclusive. Life expectancy, in the United States especially, is influenced by lifestyle, not healthcare.

Here is measure of quality... to which country do more people from other countries go to for the best healthcare, with greater numbers and frequency, than all those countries combined?

It's the good old U.S. of A. with its horrific healthcare system.

Wow...so the best measure of health care isn't how long people live because that makes NO SENSE AT ALL???? Instead it's how many people travel to the US for medical procedures? Pretty thin argument, but why not, I'll play....

In 2007, 750,000 Americans traveled to another country for health care.

In 6 months in Ontario, they found 60,000 (that's 10,000 a month) medical claims were Americans who had crossed the boarder to receive health care.

Some 648,000 Americans will seek medical treatment abroad this year, and that number will grow by 35 percent over each of the next 3 years.

I can't find numbers on people coming here for treatment - except for the Shah of Iran, and he died here.

If we suddenly had your Utopian Government-owned life with all its government healthcare glory, life expectancy in the United States will not be impacted. It is lifestyle that determines life expectancy. Because some lazy fat bastard eats himself into type 2 diabetes and dies at 50 years old is not a healthcare issue. It is a lifestyle issue.



Those numbers are undocumented medical tourism (see: cosmetic surgery) numbers.

Either way, it does not matter. A public option will pass.

How do you know life expectancy would not be impacted?

You don't think that people being able to go to the doctors would affect the life expectancy?

(...I wish I was as confident as you were in the public option getting passed)

I think you picked up on it, but I meant to type, 'will NOT pass'.

A number of physician friends who are largely indifferent to this (waiting to see what comes out of it) have told me that if there is a public option and it pays on par with medicare/medicaid they simply will not accept those patients insurance.

THIS IS THE USA NOT CANADA!




OPEN YOUR "MYOPIC EYES" AMERICA!!!

read my lips..

you ain't going to have enough health care professionals to care for the additional folks added to the health care roll..

WE SEE IN NOW IN OUR ERs with the SWINE FLU pandemic!!!

no beds, limited ventilators and a shortage of staff!!!

and you are going to tell me this will improve with 42 million folks added to the health care roll!?

i will say this till i'm "BLUE" in the face..

health care should be offered by each STATE to their residents, not thur the FEDS!

The federal gov't can't manage MEDICARE, but NOW they can now manage NATIONAL health care. Where is the FISCAL logic here.. i don't see it!!!!



daisy

miami beach

Well, then government can step in and force them...and without pity from me

Those numbers are meaningless without comparing tax rates. Don't forget the VAT tax that other countries have. I'd rather pay my 6 grand, TYVM.

http://www.worldwide-tax.com/index.asp#partthree

the sound like real classy guys.
i bet they wear masks as well.

I believe you will find that is what many physicians in private practice will do. A private practice cannot survive solely on medicare/medicaid type payment rates.

There are private practices in Canada that do not accept state insurance... they cater to the better-to-do populace.

if i were a proctologist i sure would want top dollar.LOL

Interesting story on what i believe is a Canadian government website about the explosion of private clinics in Canada that do not accept their public option. The comments from the Canadians on the story are also very interesting. Like TB, divided.

http://www.healthzone.ca/health/articles/512320

This story was before our current healthcare debate.

Google private 'private clinics Canada'. There are a number of stories regarding the Canadian system and some insight to what Canadians think of their system.

Just seems appropriate...

So let's see if I understand all this.

The Federal government can't administer a medical system, but Canada can, and at a 40% lower cost. Must be the climate.

The fifty states should administer health care because the federal government can't. I guess that explains the failure of that whole Wal-Mart thing. Bigger just doesn't work.

We can't insure 45 million people because their aren't enough doctors and nurses, but we're already spending 40% more than the rest of the world on health care. Hmmm. I'd say somebody is skimming of the top. (And no, I don't mean doctors and nurses)

Lack of health care DOESN'T effect longevity. Then why does anybody carry insurance?

You learn so much reading these threads.

This is the third time you've posted the same link.

Do you not carry a health card now? Does it work? Why wouldn't a different card work?

I have lived for 11 years under a single payor system and everything you claim will happen to us was not my experience using a government run single payer system.

You are projecting for your own purposes.


There are people who will not like any program, no matter what it is.
I lived in Canada for 11 years and I have lots of family who still do, There are gripes about the system, but there are few if any Canadians that would give up their health care coverage for our private system.

And we shouldn't have a public option because there aren't enough doctors and nurses. But somehow, if we turf this problem back to the states, what happens to the shortage of doctors and nurses?

I would love to see a link where there is a current overrun on intensive care units and insufficient ventilators for patients due to the H1N1 virus. What hospitals are experiencing this situation? Boarding pts. in the ED is nothing new; not that it's acceptable. The president declared a pandemic to start mobilizing resources. Let's not get ahead of ourselves here, Daisy.

And really, one link to the 60 Minutes segment would have been sufficient. Four or five was overkill.

What are you so angry about?

We are not Canada, but looking at a health care system that for the most part works and is loved by it's citizens is not some sort of anti-American blasphemy.

You might want to use an other quote to make points.
The last time "READ MY LIPS" was declared. It was a lie.

We should be getting AHEAD of ourselves, because we need more health care professionals to handle the new enrollment.. 42 million insured members will need care at some point in time.

Currently we do have shortages of nurses and primary care physicians in today market!

Do you really think we will have enough physicians and nurses TO HANDLE the new enrollment? I know it is over time for the plan to be implemented, but i see shortages.

The reason for each STATE to provide healthcare for their residents is to get a better handle and control of their healthcare concerns....

such as..
the cost, how many doctors, nurses, and hospital beds and clinics do we need and drum roll please.. less fraud!



THE federal GOV'T is incompetent and if they were competent i would be agreeing with you that they should be the "gatekeeper."

i don't!

crisson..

A single-payer system in another country is worth looking at, but we have many more problems than they do
(immigration, increase population and sicker patients).





resse:

Our state of Florida mentions rationing ventilators to treat flu patients.

has it happened yet?

i don't know.

******************************
Florida plan advises hospitals to bar some patients in event of severe flu pandemic --

South Florida Sun-Sentinel.com


http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/nationwor...0,2336680.story

hey,

I'm willing to take and wait and see attitude, but there are shortages out there..

Shortage of Doctors an Obstacle to Obama Goals - NYTimes.com

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/27/health/policy/27care.html


g-night!

You stated it as if it were happening right now in your previous post. I am aware of the disaster plan Florida enacted, as well as specifics to follow regarding triage protocols.

The reason states want the public option to go to the state level is so they can "opt out" of providing it. I'm not sure that's a solution.

There is a solution but too many people in congress, and those having certain investments, have too much of a financial interest to arrive at it.

Our congress and President owe too much to the health insurance industry to come up with something approximating the quality of care given in the E U and Canada. Those people, separated from us by a common language seem to have the same propensity for bribes so the NHS is the least effective provider or health care in Europe so we will ignore them although care does cost less.

One way to arrive at a system that ensures health care for all and the subsequent lowering of costs would be to expand SCHIPS to cover all children regardless of parental income.
If your health insurance is anything like mine there are three tiers of coverage, you; you and your spouse (or significant other out side of the knuckledragger states); you, your spouse, and your children.
Although your taxes will go up to cover the expansion of SCHIPS you won't have to shell out money to the insurance company so they can deny your child life saving treatment on a technicality.
The health insurance companies can still make money off of your children's misery by selling supplemental insurance that they will renege on but at least you kids will get the basic care they need.

Anyway, back on topic, by taking the burden of really sick children off hospital ER's they will be able to better do their job for less. Another plus would be that healthier children make for healthier, and more productive adults.

But none of this is going to happen, just as meaningful financial reform isn't coming anytime soon, too many in congress are addicted to that lobbyist gravy trough.
I've been advising people I know to get a language minor then move abroad to a country where the citizens are sane, before they stop immigration from the soon to be Third World country known as the United States.