[Bustina di tè]

http://www.noquarter...upt/#more-25515

Nearly two-thirds of all bankruptcies have a medical cause (e.g.,
spiraling medical and drug bills, lost income from being ill or caring
for ailing family members, forced mortgaging of homes to pay medical
bills that then go into foreclosure).

Most medical debtors were well educated.

Most medical debtors were middle class before their economic downfall.

Two thirds of the medical debtors were homeowners.

Three quarters of medical debtors had health insurance, although there were coverage gaps.

So, how will the plan Obama is pushing at the behest of those who brought him to the dance remedy this?

This post has been edited by Bustina di tè: 07 June 2009 - 03:29 PM

[mnepats52]

Average cost of a family insurance plan in 2000: $5,791

Average cost in 2008: $12,680

(Source: Kaiser Family Foundation via USA Today)

[reese]

And still many insist that there's no problem.

http://www.noquarter...upt/#more-25515


So, how will the plan Obama is pushing at the behest of those who brought him to the dance remedy this?

Why was single-payer not even discussed? Why are we not entitled to the same health care benefits our representatives get? Federally-run medical care seems to work pretty good for them; how about us?

[littleg]

http://www.noquarter...upt/#more-25515


So, how will the plan Obama is pushing at the behest of those who brought him to the dance remedy this?

I'm just thankful that my union pays for my families heath care

[Shirley U Geste]

Single payer was probably not an option because it would put millions of people out of work. At a time when we are spending trillions to turn the economy around, why would we do something to make it worse?

[justplainjoe]

Single payer was probably not an option because it would put millions of people out of work. At a time when we are spending trillions to turn the economy around, why would we do something to make it worse?

yes those poor insurance salesmen. maybe they can sell timeshare or basement waterproofing. surely there is another way to rip off their fellow americans.

[reese]

Single payer was probably not an option because it would put millions of people out of work. At a time when we are spending trillions to turn the economy around, why would we do something to make it worse?

How would single-payer put millions out of work? Please cite sources.

[Shirley U Geste]

Single payer would eliminate all other health insurance companies and brokers. That alone is millions of jobs. Sorry joe, less then 20% of those jobs are salespeople.

How does single payer save money? According to the proponents, it is saved by less paperwork and administration at the medical level. That would mean the elimination of a ton of medical billing clerks across the country. I would also assume some elimination of nursing assistants and administrative positions that are required to complete all this paperwork that is costing us billions of dollars. Consider the trickle down to computer companies who create medical billing software and all the vendors that serve the insurance industry.

Nothing is ever as simple as it appears.

[lanzate]

Single payer would eliminate all other health insurance companies and brokers. That alone is millions of jobs. Sorry joe, less then 20% of those jobs are salespeople.

How does single payer save money? According to the proponents, it is saved by less paperwork and administration at the medical level. That would mean the elimination of a ton of medical billing clerks across the country. I would also assume some elimination of nursing assistants and administrative positions that are required to complete all this paperwork that is costing us billions of dollars. Consider the trickle down to computer companies who create medical billing software and all the vendors that serve the insurance industry.

Nothing is ever as simple as it appears.

Sounds good to me, lets get started. The days of paying someone to dig a hole then pay someone else to fill it up again i thought were over. Yes single payer will cut jobs, anything that saves the taxpayer money will cut jobs but you missed the part that it saves the tax payer money. I used to be on the fence with this but I'm for it now. Eliminate the health insurance companies. Government can and will do it better.

[reese]

Single payer would eliminate all other health insurance companies and brokers. That alone is millions of jobs. Sorry joe, less then 20% of those jobs are salespeople.

How does single payer save money? According to the proponents, it is saved by less paperwork and administration at the medical level. That would mean the elimination of a ton of medical billing clerks across the country. I would also assume some elimination of nursing assistants and administrative positions that are required to complete all this paperwork that is costing us billions of dollars. Consider the trickle down to computer companies who create medical billing software and all the vendors that serve the insurance industry.

Nothing is ever as simple as it appears.

Again, there is research to prove that this would not be the logical consequence to single-payer insurance. Of course, it's hard to debate issues with people who refuse to back up their claims with evidence.

Yes, it's just better to keep on limping along with this broken system that we have. God forbid we should try to do better. Forgive me for asking, but isn't that the "American way"? Isn't that how we got a man on the moon, for pity's sake? We can get to the moon, but we can't get health care for our citizens? Does anyone else see how totally screwed up that thinking is?

Oh well, as long as it's working for YOU, it's not a problem.

This post has been edited by reese: 07 June 2009 - 05:17 PM

[Harl Delos]

Two thirds of the medical debtors were homeowners.

When my first wife was dying of SLE, we sold our house, trying to pay medical bills.

Mind you, this was in an earlier time. This was a two-story brick house, one block off the toniest street in the city. We'd bought it for $25,000 because the previous owner had gotten cancer and couldn't afford to maintain it, and it was pretty run down. I spent $5000 cash and tons of manhours of labor bringing it back up to snuff, and it was worth $45,000, so we made $15,000 on the deal, which we immediately used to pay medical bills, and we moved into rental housing.

But then taxes came due. We sold the house in February, so we only had two months of mortgage payments to deduct. We had $15,000 in medical bills to deduct, but that got reduced by x% of adjusted gross income before it could go into itemized deductions, and the upshot was that we got NO tax deduction at all for paying those medical bills - we ended up having to go with the standard deduction.

On the other hand, we now had $15,000 of extra income. Ordinarily, if you sell one house, you buy another, and the profits are rolled forward, and then when you sell your last house, you're old enough to apply a once-in-a-lifetime deduction, and so you pay no taxes on that income.

We weren't old enough.

And although those medical bills could have been wiped out in the bankruptcy we eventually had to file, the taxes on that $15,000 were NOT wiped out by bankruptcy. We had to pay them anyway.

People think that if they have good insurance, they're OK. They aren't. Well, if you have an operation that costs $35,000, the insurance company is likely to say that "usual, customary and reasonable" for that operation is $20,000, and pay 80% of that, so they cough up $16,000, and the family has to figure out where to get the other $19,000. And that's good insurance.

You're worried sick about your wife, and you spend every minute you can at the hospital with her. Nobody's doing the laundry, and you end up buying clean underwear and a clean shirt so you can go to work. That's not covered. You only get 4 hours of sleep and you don't have time to pack your lunch, and you buy it instead. That's not covered. You normally grow hundreds of dollars of food in your garden and can or freeze it for the winter. Instead, the garden goes to pot, and you buy food at the store. That's not covered. You feel guilty because you're not spending enough time with your kid, so you take him to Chuck E. Cheese when are are with him instead of reading a book to him at home. That's not covered. Your wife wants to watch television in her hospital room. That's not covered. You have to pay to park in the hospital parking garage. That's not covered.

The fact is, if the insurance paid every cent of that $35,000 operation, you'd still run up another $5,000 in extra out-of-pocket expenses, as well as losing her wages while she's off work, and losing the overtime you'd normally be earning - and that assumes that she's in a local hospital. If she's in a distant hospital because she has something local hospitals can't treat, you've got a lot of extra miles, a lot of motel bills, a lot of long distance - well, long distance used to be expensive! - and it's no wonder that medical disasters are financial disasters as well.

Those "hospital cash" insurance plans are called stupids by the experts that point out that if your regular hospital insurance doesn't pay the bills, the hospital cash plan won't begin to make up the difference. In fact, hospital indemnity plans do cost too much, compared to what they pay out, but you do need extra cash when you've got someone in the hospital.

[reese]

When my first wife was dying of SLE, we sold our house, trying to pay medical bills.

Mind you, this was in an earlier time. This was a two-story brick house, one block off the toniest street in the city. We'd bought it for $25,000 because the previous owner had gotten cancer and couldn't afford to maintain it, and it was pretty run down. I spent $5000 cash and tons of manhours of labor bringing it back up to snuff, and it was worth $45,000, so we made $15,000 on the deal, which we immediately used to pay medical bills, and we moved into rental housing.

But then taxes came due. We sold the house in February, so we only had two months of mortgage payments to deduct. We had $15,000 in medical bills to deduct, but that got reduced by x% of adjusted gross income before it could go into itemized deductions, and the upshot was that we got NO tax deduction at all for paying those medical bills - we ended up having to go with the standard deduction.

On the other hand, we now had $15,000 of extra income. Ordinarily, if you sell one house, you buy another, and the profits are rolled forward, and then when you sell your last house, you're old enough to apply a once-in-a-lifetime deduction, and so you pay no taxes on that income.

We weren't old enough.

And although those medical bills could have been wiped out in the bankruptcy we eventually had to file, the taxes on that $15,000 were NOT wiped out by bankruptcy. We had to pay them anyway.

People think that if they have good insurance, they're OK. They aren't. Well, if you have an operation that costs $35,000, the insurance company is likely to say that "usual, customary and reasonable" for that operation is $20,000, and pay 80% of that, so they cough up $16,000, and the family has to figure out where to get the other $19,000. And that's good insurance.

You're worried sick about your wife, and you spend every minute you can at the hospital with her. Nobody's doing the laundry, and you end up buying clean underwear and a clean shirt so you can go to work. That's not covered. You only get 4 hours of sleep and you don't have time to pack your lunch, and you buy it instead. That's not covered. You normally grow hundreds of dollars of food in your garden and can or freeze it for the winter. Instead, the garden goes to pot, and you buy food at the store. That's not covered. You feel guilty because you're not spending enough time with your kid, so you take him to Chuck E. Cheese when are are with him instead of reading a book to him at home. That's not covered. Your wife wants to watch television in her hospital room. That's not covered. You have to pay to park in the hospital parking garage. That's not covered.

The fact is, if the insurance paid every cent of that $35,000 operation, you'd still run up another $5,000 in extra out-of-pocket expenses, as well as losing her wages while she's off work, and losing the overtime you'd normally be earning - and that assumes that she's in a local hospital. If she's in a distant hospital because she has something local hospitals can't treat, you've got a lot of extra miles, a lot of motel bills, a lot of long distance - well, long distance used to be expensive! - and it's no wonder that medical disasters are financial disasters as well.

Those "hospital cash" insurance plans are called stupids by the experts that point out that if your regular hospital insurance doesn't pay the bills, the hospital cash plan won't begin to make up the difference. In fact, hospital indemnity plans do cost too much, compared to what they pay out, but you do need extra cash when you've got someone in the hospital.

Your story is all too familiar, but that's because I read stories like it all the time in my journals and from my updates from the California Nurses Association. I'm sorry, but I just got so angry reading it. Not at you, but at everyone who sits back and says that for one reason or another "universal health care" is like the next Great Satan. No one should be bankrupted because of medical costs. This is unconscionable to me.

I'm sorry for the needless pain that you and your wife suffered.

Bill Moyers Journal: Single Health Payer

This post has been edited by reese: 07 June 2009 - 05:47 PM

[Shirley U Geste]

Of course, it's hard to debate issues with people who refuse to back up their claims with evidence.

Why bother? When someone posts links you find an excuse to ignore them or discredit them. Same as I would do when you post the study from the CA Nurses's Association the single payer would create jobs and help our economy.

[Harl Delos]

Average cost of a family insurance plan in 2000: $5,791

Average cost in 2008: $12,680

(Source: Kaiser Family Foundation via USA Today)

Cost of Medicare in 2006: $6,688 in Rochester, Minnesota, where the Mayo Clinic has the largest collection of the shiniest new toys in the world.



I was really gung-ho on single-payer, until a couple of days ago, when I ran across a great article in the June 1, New Yorker (found in a waiting room at the Health Campus.) While I'm still pro- single-payer, this article convinced me single-payer isn't enough. A lot of the solution is putting doctors on salary (so there's no incentive to run up costs).

In McAllen, Texas, the cost of Medicare in 2006 was $15 thousand, more than twice the national average. They aren't getting better care there, in fact, they're getting poorer care, but they're getting more of it.

Geisinger is apparently doing something similar to what Mayo is doing, getting excellent results at low cost.

Google "The Cost Conundrum site:newyorker.com" to find this article.

At a time when we are spending trillions to turn the economy around, why would we do something to make it worse?

We're not spending trillions to turn the economy around. We're spending trillions to keep it from collapsing altogether, while we figure out how to turn it around.

That's like saying "At a time when you have no work, why would you do something so stupid as to finish college, piling up even more bills? At a time when we're going broke, paying a fortune for gas, why would you buy a new car that gets better gas milage? At a time when we're crippled by heating bills, why would you spend even more money insulating the house?"

A lack of universal health care inhibits the formation of small businesses. Good employees are afraid to leave their big-company jobs if they have a family member with a chronic health problem. If it didn't affect their health-care coverage, they'd be more free to put their talents to use where they are most needed.

Small businesses are where virtually all jobs are formed. Big companies don't create new jobs; they grow by buying small companies, and actually destroy jobs by making things more efficient. Nothing wrong with that; we could use efficiency. But we need to promote the formation of innovative new small companies to get more jobs.

[Shirley U Geste]

Big companies lay off workers. Those workers leave and open small businesses and hire others that were let go from big companies. Look around, it is happening in droves at this current moment. Health insurance is not a block to small businesses. Most don't qualify for it or can't afford it. How are higher employment taxes going to help that? They won't. It will hurt small business even more then now.