Debate over stimulus jobs Options

[Lancaster Online]

[David Lahr]

I spent the last six months volunteering through AmeriCorps, which has been able to expand significantly because of stimulus funds. Many AmeriCorps members come into the program with few skills and little work experience, and would probably be collecting unemployment if they weren't receiving a living stipend for their volunteer work. Should our tax dollars be spent on food stamps and unemployment benefits, or should they go toward programs that actually get work done and provide job training and experience for young people?

[Nickthe Stick]

Good for you David, kudos!

The stimulus shouldn't have been policitized and more R's should have voted for it!

Why do I feel like some are still railing against FDR's "New Deal?"

[mnepats52]

The stimulus shouldn't have been policitized and more R's should have voted for it!

the good news is..

way more republicans had their pictures taken with large stimulus checks being handed out on the local level..

than ever came close to voting for the bill...

anyone surprised?

[dean]

I heard that the stimulus project signs cost between $8,000 to $10,000 each. I also heard 20 of them are around Lancaster County.

How many other counties have them too, and how many of them???

[solitary]

I'm pretty sure we'll all be able to look back on this in the same light that we can currently look back on the cash for clunkers program.

Know what the #1 most traded in clunker was? A F-150. (one could say that's good, right?)
And you know what the #1 most traded for new vehicle was? An F-150.
And you know who traded most of these "clunkers" in? The people who
A: could afford to buy one anyway
B: were most likely to buy a new one soon

A remarkable number managed to sneak "bad deals" in, new Hummer anyone?

So it's all how you look at it.
If you look at the first line, it was good. When you look at the rest of the details, not so much.

source:

Trading an old Ford F-150 pickup truck for a new F-150 pickup was the most common swap under the Cash for Clunkers program, according to the Associated Press. 8,248 of these swaps took place under the program, which lead to fuel-economy gains of 1-2 mpgs. The news organization analyzed the just-released details of the Cash for Clunkers transactions.

And check this out:

- In at least 145 cases, mostly involving trucks, the government reported consumers traded old vehicles that got better than or the same mileage as the new vehicle they purchased. The government said it was continuing to investigate. "It's possible some quirky deal slipped through the cracks," Anwyl said.
- In at least 15 deals in nine states, owners of large pickups cashed in old trucks for between $3,500 and $4,500 toward new Hummer H3 SUVs that got only 16 mpg.
- In at least 32 deals, drivers traded older vehicles for new large trucks - including versions of Toyota Tundras, GMC Sierras, Chevrolet Silverados, Dodge Rams and Ford F150 pickups - that got only 14 mpg.

Now, here's the kick in the teeth:

The overall mileage increases over the clunker fleet represent a decline of 1.87 million tons of carbon dioxide per year, based on families driving an average of 12,000 miles, a yearly savings equivalent to the amount of carbon dioxide spewed in the U.S. in just 2.5 hours.

For $3 billion? 2.5 hours worth for $3 Billion? That's more than $1 billion per hour!

This post has been edited by solitary: Nov 16 2009, 02:58 PM

[skeptic2]

What percent of the stimulus has been spent so far?

Sturla is right, though, about tax cuts. Who knows what big business will do with money from tax cuts, like suspending the capital gains tax. More jobs in Indonesia or Shanghai ?

[mnepats52]

I heard that the stimulus project signs cost between $8,000 to $10,000 each. I also heard 20 of them are around Lancaster County.

Meanwhile, in his statement, Bennett himself cited figures of $1,700 per sign in Georgia, $2,000 per sign in Pennsylvania and $3,000 per project in New Jersey. He did not provide sourcing and his office did not return a call and an e-mail.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/st...uch-road-signs/

How many other counties have them too, and how many of them???

State spends about $140,000 on signs for stimulus projects - Scranton times 10/16/09

http://www.scrantontimes.com/news/business...imulus_projects


However, the price tag of the signs, about $2,342 each

[solitary]

Assuming that it's ONLY two grand if there's 20 of them in Lanc. Co. That's still $40,000, or the average per capita salary. Which we could use to pay someone to lean on a shovel instead of a steel sign that's going to be recycled for about $2.00 later.

[mnepats52]

What percent of the stimulus has been spent so far?

i tried to find it and couldn't...

but i thought i read that it was around 40%...

Assuming that it's ONLY two grand if there's 20 of them in Lanc. Co. That's still $40,000, or the average per capita salary. Which we could use to pay someone to lean on a shovel instead of a steel sign that's going to be recycled for about $2.00 later.

but have you considered the negative health affects of thinking the signs cost 6k..

when they really cost 2300...

lol...

[solitary]

I thought you said it was $2,000? Now it's $2,300? So the signs are now 15% more expensive in the last hour?

Negative health effects... buddy, I worked in Public Education for a number of years. You have no idea what kind of waste goes on in our government.
A prime example. The school district I was working in was renovating several schools dating back to 1930. This presents numerous challenges. The walls may be up to two feet thick, brick and mortar. Nothing is level or plumb, even if it was when it was built. One school was built on a former land fill. Ordinarily, this is a good thing. However, schools tend to be rather large, heavy structures compared to say residential or even small commercial buildings. So it was slowly sinking, this made many, many things not plumb and it limits how deep of a foundation you can use.

So this is just some of the problems that a newer structure wouldn't have.
As part of the renovation, the network and phone systems were either to be installed or expanded. Since in 1930, many buildings were fitted with both gas AND electric lights, because this new fangled electricity wasn't considered to be reliable, no one would have thought to design the building for CAT-V (commonly used for phone/internet/network connections). With out making this post extremely complicated, an entire wing of a building would have a "closet", which is a large steel cabinet where all the network "stuff" would come together.

Due to the cost, by law, this has to be offered for bid and the lowest bid must be accepted. There is no opportunity to force a certain level of quality work.
So the bidding comes back, the lowest bid is accepted, who also is the lowest quality of work and materials in order to complete the job and make a profit.

I had closets that were shaky, they never bothered to level them. Leveling before installing them takes five minutes. Leveling them after takes a half hour or more. Doing this once isn't a big deal. Doing it a hundred times (not kidding or exaggerating). That's 50 man hours. A whole week dedicated to nothing but fixing a stupid mistake, no, let me rephrase, general laziness on the part of the contractor.
Wiring was a total mess, later many terminations (fancy term for an outlet) needed to be re-done because it was done quick and dirty. Time to fix one? A minimum of 20 minutes, this is in addition to any time wasted trying to figure out where the problem was to begin with. How many terminations did I fix? Probably three dozen per building. Time to do it "right the first time"? About 10. Time to fix it before it was in the wall? About five.
Then there were problems that required re-running the "drop". Before the ceiling is installed, before the tile is laid, before the walls are sealed up, drops are run in bundles of about 10-20. The time to run a bundle of 20 drops is around 10 feet per minute.
After everything is finished, the time to run one drop, because it was done without paying attention? Close to a minute per foot, or about 10 times as long, for one, instead of 20, which mathematically works out to be 200 times the initial cost.

How much did they "save" by hiring a crappy contractor? Probably about $4,000. How much did they pay me to fix the "work" done by the contractor? A whole lot more than that. And that's only if you count my salary, you throw in the cost for my time to drive there, mileage allowance, tools, materials, check in/check out time (about 10 minutes per trip), accounting costs, down time, it quickly snowballs into a significant sum of money.

This is the type of waste that goes on all over government. I haven't had a heart attack yet, but many tax payers would if they could see the millions of tax dollars pissed away on a regular basis in government.

Instead of resolving the problem of excessive waste, the solution year after year is to raise taxes.

This post has been edited by solitary: Nov 17 2009, 09:31 AM

[skeptic2]

Great news that I missed 3 weeks ago:

Electric Cars to be Built in Delaware !!

NEWPORT, Del. ― Vice President Joe Biden returned home on Tuesday to help state officials announce plans for an electric car manufacturer to reopen a vacant auto plant in northern Delaware. Fisker Automotive will buy the former General Motors plant on Boxwood Road, which closed in July after 62 years in operation. The Irvine, Calif.-based company will use the site to produce a plug-in hybrid sedan currently in development.

The cars are estimated to cost approximately $39,000 after federal tax incentives. Production is expected to begin in 2012.

Speaking at the plant to an audience of mostly United Auto Workers members who used to work for GM, Biden praised Fisker's efforts to invest in energy-efficient cars.

"People said the days of America providing the wheels for the world were over, and it wasn't just the auto industry, it was all manufacturing in America," Biden said. "But we're here standing today proving the beginning of what we're going to be able to say: 'The doubters were wrong about our ability to manufacture.' "

The announcement is welcome news for Delaware, which, in the last year, has seen its once-strong auto industry vanish. In addition to the GM plant closing, Chrysler closed its Newark assembly plant in December.

Last week, the university signed a deal to purchase the Chrysler site and eventually plans to use it for a research and development facility.

"It's a bittersweet day for a lot of our brothers and sisters at Chrysler," Biden said. "We're not opening that plant again. That's not a place where we're having that kind of rebirth."

Still, the mood was celebratory among state officials, who spent the last few months lobbying Fisker officials to close their deal to purchase the GM plant.

"This is our sunny day," Sen. Tom Carper said.

The Fisker plant, which will eventually produce up to 100,000 vehicles per year, is expected to bring more than 2,000 factory jobs and 3,000 supplier jobs to the state.

"Today, that new chapter begins," Gov. Jack Markell said. "It may very well be the start of our state's economic future.

Fisker executives say the company was lured to Delaware by the size of the vacant plant, the proximity to the Port of Wilmington and a variety of tax incentives offered by state officials.

Biden, who has long enjoyed the support of the UAW, often spent time at the plant while running for office. He said he envisions a future in which the plant will return to prominence in the auto industry.

"Imagine a day when 2,000 workers are once again passing through those gates being harassed by politicians like me," Biden said. "Imagine a day when this plant, on the floor we're standing on right now, is making 100,000 plug-in, hybrid sedans, coupes and crossovers every single year. Imagine an America that has freed itself from the grip of the oligarchs of oil by plugging their cars into a new electric grid of renewable energy."

[mnepats52]

I thought you said it was $2,000? Now it's $2,300? So the signs are now 15% more expensive in the last hour?

i provided 2-links that discussed the cost of signs in pa....

did you bother to read them?

too funny...

[solitary]

I see no need to read the links since I'm not arguing with your initial response stating the signs are $2,000. The cost of the signs, be it $2,000 each or $20,000 each the point remains. This is a thorough waste of money which was supposed to keep people employed. Keep in mind, this is money we do not have, we borrowed it. We borrowed a lot of money from China, who I wouldn't say is an enemy, however, we can not call them our friend either.
China is a loan shark, we will pay dearly for borrowing the money from them.

Considering what will most likely be huge costs later, we should not be pissing away this money on PSA signs saying what a great job we're doing, when the presence of the signs clearly indicate to the contrary.

too funny in deed. Funny like sad clown funny. Nope, on second thought, it's not funny, not humorous, not odd - funny, it's just sad actually.

This post has been edited by solitary: Nov 18 2009, 09:50 AM

[grieker]

What percent of the stimulus has been spent so far?

Sturla is right, though, about tax cuts. Who knows what big business will do with money from tax cuts, like suspending the capital gains tax. More jobs in Indonesia or Shanghai ?

What has the government done with the billions that have been paid back thus far?

Big business creates long term jobs, not short term.

I can assure you of this much, with the current tax structure there is ZERO/ZIP/NILL/NICHT/NADA chance of jobs being onshored.